Curse

Test Me · Nov 10, 2008, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Striken7

And the best part about it, is that a vast majority of skill changes have no effect on PvE whatsoever. Everyone can still finish all the campaigns with any build (or no build at all). The only area where the subtle changes in skills are actually important is in PvP and let's face it, if you can't bother learning all the changes, you don't belong in PvP anyway.

You know, I am a software designer myself, although not a game designer in particular. And you just made me realize that GW is basically in a permanent beta state. They shouldn't even call this version 1. The product was never launched. It's just 0.9945. That's the only way I can explain such an unstable software product.

I do understand expansions/upgrades which would be counted as version 1.1 or 2.0. But that's not what they are doing with these nerfs is it? Technically they are still fixing bugs, so there you go they're in beta.

And to put it in software-ish terms, they break backward compatibility every month or so. So there you go, they never launched a full mature product. They're still in beta testing and still struggling to launch it.

A mature game would not challenge players by changing the rules of the game, but by adding new content where the old ways just don't work and then people know they face the unknown cause they enter a new area they haven't entered before. Also that would not deny your previously acquired game experience, old areas will still be defeated as you learned to do it one year ago.

The thought that people actually think that this way of handling things is actually entertaining cause it keeps the game from getting old... I find that really saddening. This is not how things should be but we all got used to it, as it is the only change we get, and therefore a possibility for excitement/something different.

Really sad. ANet is treat its *great* fan base that sticked through till this day like crap and they don't know better so we accept anything. And we get excited at the most minor of the changes cause we've got used to getting nothing.

Maybe the balance of the skills is going better, but in reality that is not most important. Imbalanced games can be tons of fun as well. I even find a lot more rewarding defeating a PvP team that was way overpowered than defeating an equal team, and I find sometimes fun just the fact that I can go in some PvE area and smash every monster like in god mode cause I know that area so all that I can handle anything there. However they are obviously obsessed with balance and that's they only thing they see.

Really sad. Yes, the couple of people that suggested me to move on were right. I need to move on. Sadly cause I really loved this game a lot time ago, and I was "loyal" and didn't want to move because I liked it so. Hope dies last, how they say it.

However I'm just getting too tired of waiting for ANet to finally get it right spoiling and ruining everything in trying to do so. It's gone from excellent to good to bad to worse and it keeps going down.

moriz · Nov 10, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

i personally doubt you are a software developer. if you are, then you must realize that software change and evolve. this is just greatly magnified for a game like guild wars, which was initially slated to be an extremely competitive e-sport game. balanced pvp was supposed to drive this game forward. obviously that part of the plan fell through, but the game was designed with constant balancing in mind, and that's not going to change.

if you still think constant balancing is somehow bad, consider this: before reaching the state of more-or-less perfect balance, the game starcraft went through a ton of balance changes (anyone remembered when zerg queens had the glaive wurm attack? or hatcheries costing 400 minerals? or terran wraiths had to upgrade before getting a ground attack? yikes). game balance happens, and it will continue to happen. it's called SUPPORT, which as a software developer, you should know. GW simply needs more support than usual, since its 1000+ skills, their interactions with each other, and other game mechanics, are enormously hard to balance.

Test Me · Nov 10, 2008, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i personally doubt you are a software developer. if you are, then you must realize that software change and evolve.

I have no need to prove anything regarding this point. Your "if you are then you must..." is not relevant. If I am then I must have a geeky look and wear glasses as well?

However, software changing is called versioning. When a software is released it goes through a cycle from unstable versions to a stable version 1.

In games in particular the situation is pretty bad because most games nowadays are released not as a final version, although publishers push it as a final "stable" release cause they just want to cash in. And then a bunch of updates happen to actually make the game stable. In reality they launch most of the games in beta or even alpha and then they patch it till it gets to a stable enough state, which is actually what they should've released to begin with.

In the case of guild wars, it just seemed obvious to me that the skill system is not yet version 1. Any software system that needs so many fixes cannot be called stable or "out of beta".

Therefore documenting such software (in this case writing a decent play guide) is impossible. Since the software is still in beta and subject to change.

If ANet would document anything about it then they would have the issue of backwards compatibility. "Oh we can't nerf this skill this way because we documented it to work as it currently works in our manual and we would break that". But they've been very careful at avoiding giving players any such sort of documentation. Third parties are reluctant to do that as well. And I reckon there is a very good reason why this doesn't happen. I also reckon that had the system been more stable and therefore possible to document the quality of its player base would see a substantial increase.

Quote:

if you still think constant balancing is somehow bad, consider this: before reaching the state of more-or-less perfect balance, the game starcraft went through a ton of balance changes (anyone remembered when zerg queens had the glaive wurm attack? or hatcheries costing 400 minerals? or terran wraiths had to upgrade before getting a ground attack? yikes). game balance happens, and it will continue to happen. it's called SUPPORT, which as a software developer, you should know. GW simply needs more support than usual, since its 1000+ skills, their interactions with each other, and other game mechanics, are enormously hard to balance.

Good example. Another game launched in alfa/beta that got fixed after the sale point. Did they take 3.5 years to "update" it to a stable release however? Are they still updating/supporting/nerfing/fixing/(whatever you want to call it) it?

GW is going on a quest for perfect balance when it should go instead on a quest of making players have fun. Even if they theoretically get to the point of making the skill system perfect, would you as a player have more fun with this game?

I suspect the answer is NO. As long as there aren't any huge flaws in the balance of the game, no one would really care. They're just being perfectionists and stubborn to let it go and address other issues that need addressing.

And while skill balances are good in the beginning, GW is way past the point of diminishing returns in this regard. The fatigue/frustration effect on the players of the skill changes overcomes the benefits.

byteme! · Nov 10, 2008, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Alot of games I play add new content to keep players interested instead of readjusting existing game mechanics to give a false impression of something new. You can adjust all GW skills all day long but at the end of the day even with your newly redefined skill sets you're still tackling the same boring shit. Nothing really changes.

Perhaps I should uninstall sometime in the near future.

gremlin · Nov 11, 2008, 12:16 PM // 12:16

There are places in the Prophesies game that are different each time you enter the area.

Some parts of the Southern Shiverpeaks and the Fire Islands, you do not always find the same boss creature in the same area.

I don't know why they didn't make that standard for the entire game its pretty absurd for Boss/Mob location and content to always remain constant.

I am really hoping that GW2 goes with more variety and allows evolution to occur depending on player actions.

To put it in gw1 terms, If someone always goes to the big rock outside a city to kill a Necro Boss and usually uses the certain skills to beat his fixed skills.
The game should start to compensate, Boss should evolve move on or cease to exist.

Most of the time we would see little change as players and parties vary but when a specific farming build is used by many then things would start to change as the AI fights back.

More ambushes would be good too and not always in the same place, Be nice to turn off the radar too so you have to actually use your eyes to see enemies.
No radar should be the default for hard mode.

Oh well Ive done my QQing lol

cyvil · Nov 11, 2008, 01:46 PM // 13:46

OP, I find the skill changes somewhat fun. While I am not always excited to have to change runes and weapons on heroes, the skill balances do not always result in my having to do so.

You say that GW is still in Beta? Did you stop to think that maybe regular skill changes were always intended? Certainly not all of the changes were intended, but I have to think that the skill changes in general are good for the game, overall. The PvP crowd often complains when enough skills are not changed. On the PvE side, I look for changed skills and think, "hey, this will cruise through area x." The skill changes also affect the baddies, making some areas easier and some harder. If not for the skill changes, I would likely not change more than a skill or two on my bars, and probably would have been bored to death in short order. Half of the fun for me is looking through the changes, forums and wikis to see what new stuff the changes will allow me to do.

moriz · Nov 11, 2008, 04:24 PM // 16:24

the OP continues to try to convince people that GW is somehow "not stable", and therefore continuously in beta. that is not true. this is because he is fixated on skill balancing, which were always intended to the variable elements in the game and therefore has no bearing on GW's "completeness". GW's completeness is purely judged on how well it runs on a machine. does it often crash? no. does it run well on its intended hardware? yes. therefore, it is stable.

going back to my starcraft example: no, it did not take 3.5 years for it to reach a balance equilibrium. however, keep in mind that blizzard had an actual TEAM to manage its game balance (as opposed to just one person for arenanet). their battle.net system can keep track of everything, from player race distribution down to the actual win percentages by race, by skill level, by map, by early/mid/late-game scenarios, etc. they had a lot of data to work with, whereas izzy did not. as such, starcraft, by virtue of being easier to balance and having a lot more data to work with, reached its balance equilibrium a lot sooner.

starcraft is also the perfect example to completely defeat your concept of "new content = good game". starcraft has not received any new content for NINE YEARS. how does it stay fresh? well, by its mostly flawless balance and by player generated content. the last part is important. keeping a game fresh by constantly adding new content, using GW's revenue model, is IMPOSSIBLE. to keep its players interested, GW will have to follow the same path as starcraft. that is, it needs absolutely incredible pvp balance. player generated content in a well-balanced game will never get stale, because the endless permutations of strategy/counterstrategy/style/counterstyle is always fun. compared to continuously pumping in new content, balanced pvp is both far more cost effective and far more interesting. new content will eventually get old; balanced pvp will almost never get old.

HawkofStorms · Nov 11, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

I have no need to prove anything regarding this point. Your "if you are then you must..." is not relevant. If I am then I must have a geeky look and wear glasses as well?

However, software changing is called versioning. When a software is released it goes through a cycle from unstable versions to a stable version 1.

In games in particular the situation is pretty bad because most games nowadays are released not as a final version, although publishers push it as a final "stable" release cause they just want to cash in. And then a bunch of updates happen to actually make the game stable. In reality they launch most of the games in beta or even alpha and then they patch it till it gets to a stable enough state, which is actually what they should've released to begin with.

In the case of guild wars, it just seemed obvious to me that the skill system is not yet version 1. Any software system that needs so many fixes cannot be called stable or "out of beta".

Therefore documenting such software (in this case writing a decent play guide) is impossible. Since the software is still in beta and subject to change.

If ANet would document anything about it then they would have the issue of backwards compatibility. "Oh we can't nerf this skill this way because we documented it to work as it currently works in our manual and we would break that". But they've been very careful at avoiding giving players any such sort of documentation. Third parties are reluctant to do that as well. And I reckon there is a very good reason why this doesn't happen. I also reckon that had the system been more stable and therefore possible to document the quality of its player base would see a substantial increase.

Good example. Another game launched in alfa/beta that got fixed after the sale point. Did they take 3.5 years to "update" it to a stable release however? Are they still updating/supporting/nerfing/fixing/(whatever you want to call it) it?

GW is going on a quest for perfect balance when it should go instead on a quest of making players have fun. Even if they theoretically get to the point of making the skill system perfect, would you as a player have more fun with this game?

I suspect the answer is NO. As long as there aren't any huge flaws in the balance of the game, no one would really care. They're just being perfectionists and stubborn to let it go and address other issues that need addressing.

And while skill balances are good in the beginning, GW is way past the point of diminishing returns in this regard. The fatigue/frustration effect on the players of the skill changes overcomes the benefits.

So... moral of the story

Some people bitch about GW for not adding new content
(see: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10336427)

Some people bitch about GW because they do (like this guy and the OP).

Ultimate lesson to be learned... you can't win.

jaximus · Nov 12, 2008, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Ultimate lesson to be learned... you can't win.

this is the meaning of life. for one, no skills should ever have been split for pvp/pve. they should always all be the same. the game was made with minimal grind for max level/equipment. its a pvp game, thats your new content. with that in mind, they should change skills that effect pvp mostly. (aside from shadowform which is just utter garbage) pve is quite easy now. anet introduced pve only skills (anything on a title track) so people dont even use a full compliment of actual skills in pve anyway. so why should they care when basically they have 4 elites on their bar? as for the OP talking about how hes a casual gamer and such and doesnt play 8 hours per day, anet got the money from you when you bought the game. anet gives you free usage of their servers. they shouldnt slow the progress of a game for casual gamers. the people that have the most insight into how the game works and the people that find the newest FotM farming/pvp builds are the ones that play 8+ hours a day. these are the people anet should be responding to.

Chieftain Heavyhand · Nov 12, 2008, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

as for the OP talking about how hes a casual gamer and such and doesnt play 8 hours per day, anet got the money from you when you bought the game. anet gives you free usage of their servers. they shouldnt slow the progress of a game for casual gamers. the people that have the most insight into how the game works and the people that find the newest FotM farming/pvp builds are the ones that play 8+ hours a day. these are the people anet should be responding to.

Those pasty 8+ hour a day players are exactly the people anet nerfs things for. Those are the people who come on sites like this wailing and moaning about balance and broken play because at first they were benefiting from it then their secret got out and everyone joined in.

Casual players aren’t on here PI$$ing and moaning about how now everyone can farm DoA, how now everyone can farm ectos in UW, how now everyone is running blood spike or Iway in PvP, the ones who are doing that are the ones who started doing it and they slipped and told what they were doing and the word got out.

After that then everyone was doing it pro zombies and block headed casuals alike. The thing was and is the pros don't want the casuals doing what they do. What people fail to see is that most people even with the right build and equipment still cant do the stuff so then they join in with the crying and stuff gets nerfed.

I have railed against nerfing since I started playing I was on these boards learning before I bought the game. Most people raise cane about farming, faction farming, green framing, PvP play, on and on because those players aren't playing how they play and everyone should play how they do.

Anet doesn’t pander to casuals anet panders to whiners and those come out of the wood work from all sides, PvP, PvE, pro, casual and the middle.

I've ranted my fair share but always about things being taken away, not for them to be taken away.

The skill split was the best thing so far and should have happened sooner. It would have lessened the conflict between those who like to PvE and PvP instead now there are those on each side who blame the other things they don't like.

I'm always for more content and always against changes that reduce enjoyment.

PvP balance is a must, but making changes to stop people from enjoying something just doesn't seem right to me. But hey I'll whine about the changes for a little while and hold a grudge that they are no longer there but I'll continue to enjoy the game.

It would just be nice to receive new content instead of putting so much work into reducing it. Yes the areas are still there but the builds that were fun and enjoyable are gone as soon as new ones come up they will change it so those will not work in a short amount of time as well.

This mode of operation seems to pander to those who have devoted huge amounts of time in the game so at the slightest hint of a new FotM farming build they can mobilize and take advantage of it before the process of nerfing it starts all over again. The changes don't seem to benefit casual players who have to find out about the build, build up characters and get them to the spots, then by the time they get there the place is nerfed.

Avarre · Nov 13, 2008, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chieftain Heavyhand

Casual players aren’t on here PI$$ing and moaning about how now everyone can farm DoA, how now everyone can farm ectos in UW, how now everyone is running blood spike or Iway in PvP, the ones who are doing that are the ones who started doing it and they slipped and told what they were doing and the word got out.

After that then everyone was doing it pro zombies and block headed casuals alike. The thing was and is the pros don't want the casuals doing what they do. What people fail to see is that most people even with the right build and equipment still cant do the stuff so then they join in with the crying and stuff gets nerfed.

Gimmick builds aren't nerfed because they're 'too good' (usually) or because 'pros' don't want their secrets to get out (good players don't rely on gimmicks). They're nerfed because gimmicks abuse a single mechanic to get a dispropotionate result out of their ability. Gimmicks ruin the mid-level playing field because Jimmy McGuildWars running gimmicks, who knows nothing outside the game, will utterly demolish Bob SupGW who is trying to run balanced builds and get better at the game. It doesn't take skill to count down from 3, or to cspace, and you shouldn't be able to roll players better than you without playing better. That's the basis of competition - skill wins, and gimmicks exclude skill from the equation.

As a result, everyone starts running retarded gimmicks and either it gets unpleasant and not fun for the newer players who are trying to get better by playing a proper build, or boring for the solid teams who don't like having to crush gimmick scrubs all day long. That's not good for the game. At the same time, Guild Wars needs gimmicks - there has to be space for mind games in tournaments, and to give weaker player an easier way in. There'll always be gimmicks, but they shouldn't be outright imbalanced stuff like pre-nerf IWAY, SBRI, DMos, etc...